Teach for America Ordered to Pay Back Taxpayers’ Money

Whoa! Not just a smoking gun; A flaming cannon.

Norms last blog post..She’s Not There

Maybe the money they pay back can be used to close the achievement gap that TFA claims to be trying to close.

[...] all non-profits are this terrible at keeping their books, but a business would never get away with this sort of error. This is ridiculous coming from an agency that has placed such an emphasis on “data” [...]

Their representative sounded ridiculous-
“we’re confident”
Who cares if you’re confident? We know that you are extremely confident. That’s the problem. You’re confident and clueless and causing harm to children.

It seems like what it comes down to is this: TFA has all contracts, receipts, staff and corps member attendance lists, etc to back up the money spent on institute during that time frame… but failed to have 600+ people sign in for 3 meals per day, every day, for 5 weeks? Can you even imagine how horrible that would be? As someone who went through the training institute and waited in the cafeteria line with 600 people at every meal, I can tell you first hand just how infeasible that is. Seriously, would you want to do that? And why should they even be required to do it in the first place?

And TRUST ME, the food and lodging we are provided is definitely not fancy. There is no doubt that they were working within a strict budget.

OR maybe you never saw the money that was actually ALLOCATED for your food…

Deep Thoughts!!!!

Since this incident occurred, TFA trainees are required to sign in for all meals. This does include signing in if a “to go” lunch was received and being counted and “swiped” in for all dining hall meals. As a TFA member myself, I appreciate a dissenting voice. TFA is far from perfect and, like all programs, can always improve. While your outcries against the organization are sometimes valid it is important to remember that the members of this organization, the young men and women who make up the teaching corps, are not the executive branch. They are young teachers, just as you were at one point, and they need your help and support in the classroom. Rather than berating a TFA member and pointing them out as an example of a flawed system, help them improve, offer them your experienced guidance, and show them the same professional development opportunities you used and continue to use. While the major complaint against TFA members is that they don’t stay beyond their two year commitment, a helping hand in the school and a powerful mentor and friend in the classroom are much stronger motivators for staying than any institution provided incentive could ever possibly be.

Respectfully,

Rose Smith

For some reason, some TFA members have confused our disdain and cynicism about Teach for America as an organization, with the people who are recruited by them.
This simply is not true-although at times, we do need to point out absurdities as is seen in our post entitled “It Just Keeps Getting Better”.
Truthfully, it does not matter to me if a new teacher came from TFA or Fellows or Traditional programs, or wherever- I would help them and guide them to the best of my ability. I always have. Why wouldn’t anyone? It’s a very tough job that offers little or no support.
My criticism is against the Teach for America Conglomerate which I feel has been tainted by private interests who have agendas in mind that have nothing to do with helping low income children.
It truly disturbs me as an educator of inner city children to see that the very real needs of such children are never addressed; poverty, lack of nutrition, inadequate medical care, etc… Instead, politicians and private interests ignore such very basic needs which, in a country like ours, should be unthinkable.
Instead of creating new ways to recruit teachers, let’s find ways to address the above-mentioned problems. Doesn’t this make sense?
I’m sorry if some TFA people see the criticism of their organization as a criticism on them personally, but they should, as educated individuals, be able to distinguish between their own their own emotion and the organization to which they belong.

AVIW: You say that we need to address the issues of poverty, nutrition and health care as well - yes! Lack of education is a major factor in the cycle of poverty, so why not recruit as many young grads to work on it as possible? Upon graduation, I, and every other new corps member, saw basically 2 options:

1. Join TFA. Work really, really, really hard for 2 years. Completely transform yourself and your views on urban education and poverty. Then, either stay in education and keep fighting the good fight, or move on with the knowledge and determination to do something about the problem. Start your career in another sector and use your influence to do exactly that - address the issues of poverty, nutrition, health care, and education.

2. Join the private sector right out of college and go along our merry way, with no experience or determination to fix the aforementioned issues. Continue to live life as you please, without a second thought to the kids that don’t have a chance.

AVIW - which option sounds better to you? To me, it sounds like you just validated the second “prong” of TFA’s mission. Without us, America would have 14,000 less motivated adults trying to fix the very issues you want addressed, and 14,000 more regular 9-5′ers putting in a hard days work in Corporate America. And in 2010, that number will be 20,000.

And PS: The disdain is pretty hard to distinguish when you compare TFA to Pinky and the Brain.

And about the food money - you may think that those running TFA are evil, but you certainly can’t call them stupid enough to pocket $750K.

Sarah and Rose:

No one is dismissing or disrespecting TFA teachers here. We are dismissing and disrespecting an organization that is doing above said TO US.

With all due respect, in my view, TFA “teachers” are teachers in training, if you can even call it that. I did my official student teacher training in the inner city, as well as all my other required training: grad school education preparatory, thesis, testing and licensure.

Now, here comes this arrogant organization who claims to be able to fix the ailments we’ve all been trying to fix for decades, and with a group of spoon-fed college elite whom they believe will do this with no training and for less money than many people are willing to pay US. THAT is the issue here, whether you see this wave coming right now, or not. In case you haven’t been paying attention to current events, a lot of powerful people do not give a crap about educating poor and/or people of color these days.
Elitism, anyone?

Being a teacher means being part of a community, not a bragging right of how you toughed it out for 2 years as a educator. The attitude of too many people regarding the teaching profession is: “I can do that.” In my experience, no, they can’t. Teaching is a gift, a talent, you either have it or you don’t, but you must be groomed and guided to make the most of it. You can’t figure this stuff out on our own, and teaching is not the place to try to save the world and prove your amazing abilities alone. No amount of idealism will save a teacher if they are trying to prove something, and no amount of talent will save a teacher if they have no support and guidance. It is very unfortunate that the TFA is presenting itself as a organization that has the ability to provide idealist young grads with the notion that they can go it alone, do it better than their trained “colleagues” and then leave us behind before embarking on their “real life”.
Second helping of elitism, anyone?

If you truly desire to accomplish helpful change for schools and children in the future, I applaud and respect you. But the TFA is not seeing eye to eye with you on that front, as it stands right now.

There is a recurring theme on anti-TFA blogs that suggests that TFA exists to disrespect/devalue career teachers (comment by Deborah). They feel threatened, and rightfully so, by a bunch of 22 year old upstarts with 5 weeks of training. We are creating a national movement of teachers that refuse to be mediocre, which scares the group of teachers that want nothing more than a paycheck and health insurance. The thing is, I don’t think the people writing and commenting on educational blogs are members of that group. It seems like if they care enough to fight for the education of their students, then they are not likely to be lazy and mediocre in the classroom. It’s some of their (and my) colleagues that have created the demand for teachers like TFA corps members.

And let me say this very plainly: we have no desire whatsoever to remove effective teachers from urban classrooms.

If teaching is to be a respected profession, as so many educators implore it to be, then why shouldn’t teachers be held to similarly high standards as every other profession? In the real world outside of the gripping union contracts, if a person is not adequately performing their job function, she is removed from that position. Why should it be any different for teachers? Who made teaching the one profession where it’s virtually impossible to get fired? And who thought that was a good idea for the students? At least in corporate America, someone sucking at their job isn’t usually affecting dozens of children’s lives.

Anti-progressive teachers: if you want your work to be respected and valued, be willing to hold yourself to high professional standards - and that means showing quantitatively AND qualitatively that your students are learning! If you can’t or won’t do that, then find another job. Our kids don’t need warm bodies collecting a paycheck at the front of their classroom.

And for the LAST time, it’s not about arrogance or elitism, it’s about effectiveness.

This is exactly the kind of clueless rhetoric I expected to hear. How miserably disappointing. If you think for one splint second that lousy employees and cronyism doesn’t occur in the private sector, that you truly have lots to learn. I, unlike many, HAVE worked in both the private sector and education. I’ve witnessed it first hand, and I hear the horror stories of friends and family who describe co-workers who should be fired and rarely are, especially if they are in a managerial position. You truly have no idea what you are talking about, but you will as you start to see similar things over time, in your own life. And I don’t consider other professions, where people take hour long lunches on company time, spend hours surfing the net and playing games, and other such nonsense to be “high standards” of job performance, and it’s EVERYWHERE in the private sector. Meanwhile, teachers can’t even use the toilet when the need to, let alone have time to stand around the water cooler whenever they want and talk about game scores. Gimme a break. Get out in the real workforce and you’ll notice the work ethic in this country isn’t exactly highly focused. Studies show the average American worker wastes two hours of every work day doing diddly nonsense that is not work related. I don’t know any teacher who has that time to kill.

Getting fired is a real threat when you have no tenure and are dealing with a bullying administration who comes up with petty issues against you and sometimes even outright lies, which happened to me several years back. According to state law, school administrators are NOT required to give a non-tenured teacher a reason for firing them. Was it because I was a bad teacher? HELL, NO. I came with a glowing and successful reputation after successfully working with 4 other principals in the district. He didn’t like me and admitted such, said I didn’t say “good morning” to him (a lie, among several) and never seemed happy. I later found out he had a 20 year career of pulling this crap on teachers, nurses, assistants, subs and everyone else he didn’t like, usually in a very insidious manner. He had a reputation as a complete slimeball, but I didn’t know that until after that hellish ordeal. Great relief was had the day I finally received tenure and no longer lived in fear of not having kissed enough ass and of rocking the boat and losing my job. THAT is the reality of teacher’s tenure. Unions are only so powerful, and really can’t help you in every given scenario, but they had to try to protect their members from this kind of abuse that occurs in every district at one point or another. I suggest you get your facts straight before you start “quoting” them and regurgitating whatever crap you’d been told and led to believe. You’ll save yourself a lot of grief, as well as embarrassment, in the long run when you experience the truth, first hand.

AVIW,
Thank you for attempting to clarify, but I can and do distinguish between anti TFA discussion and anti TFA member discussion. The remark about alienating and pointing the finger at individual TFA members was more directed at the contributers to your previous blog post concerning blogger and TFA member Sarah. I read and understood the discourse, but I do agree with some of her posts that the responses became far more personal than a blog directed at educated and informed discussion should have allowed. As I said earlier I understand and appreciate criticism directed at TFA since flaws in the organization do need to be pointed out. How else are they going to be improved upon? I fully and clearly distinguish between myself and the organization, I was merely noting that responses to your often insightful and poignant blogs might be better directed at the topics you propose than individual members. I’m sorry if that was unclear.

I also wanted to clarify that I wasn’t and didn’t intend to personally attack your approach to new teachers in your school. I’m sure that you create a welcoming environment for all those who join your profession, I was merely trying to make it clear to your readers and fellow educators that alienating an individual TFA member is not punishing the organization it is only punishing the individual. I’m sorry for any confusion.

As for the general comment about addressing the basic needs of our students: having been one of those inner city students myself, I am more than aware of the need to provide clothing, food and adequate health care to the millions of inner city and rural children in need. However I am also aware of the need for effective teachers to help show those children opportunities and give them advantages to help them succeed in the long run. While the classrooms in America are already populated with many caring and invested teachers there are some areas that grapple to maintain any teacher let alone those with the drive and compassion to truly serve their students. I would never look down upon or devalue the educators that already staff the classrooms across the country. Instead I am proud and honored to work alongside so many qualified and caring individuals, and hopefully you’d be hard pressed to find a TFA member who wouldn’t agree.

I agree that the issues of inadequate nutrition and health care should be addressed, and that resources ought to be spent in finding those answers. However, as an individual and a professional I am not at all qualified to do any of those things. I am not a politician, a doctor, or a social worker. Instead I have chosen to take the path of a teacher to help show my students the opportunities they need to find their way out of poverty. To the extent that I am able I provide for my student’s needs( by making sure I have food in the room, sweaters in the closet, and that I write grant proposals and donation requests for my students who need glasses, hearing aids and other medical attention) but my skills and my talents are not suited for politics. Instead I’ve found my place helping my students in the classroom just as you have, and it is where I intend to stay. Though I started with Teach for America I know that I will continue to teach long beyond my two year commitment. Because I am not qualified to affect change on a grand scale I choose to do it on the small scale, everyday in my classroom and as much as I can outside in the community.

Respectfully,

Rose Smith

Deborah,

I do and probably always will consider myself a “teacher in training.” Teaching (as with all things I have done and plan to do) will forever be a learning process. However I would also like to add that I am going through the same “grad school education, thesis, testing and licensure” as you did. Please don’t try and clarify that you’re not disrespecting us as individuals when you then proceed to place our title in quotations. TFA is a training program and I am very aware that I have very little classroom experience. I know that I am young, green, and idealistic and I look to the experienced teachers in my school to help me grow and learn. I also spend four nights a week and two Saturdays a month in a classroom, learning myself, how to be a teacher. I have passed all of my exams and have completed and passed the TFE. I have written many papers, submitted many homework assignments and look forward to completing my masters thesis. So please don’t belittle my position by insinuating I am any less of a teacher than those who are traditionally educated.

In addition the comment about “spoon-fed college elite” is also a personal remark since it directly references the members of the organization rather than the program itself. I was in no way “spoon fed” through any of my college education or life in general, so please don’t make generalizations. If you’d like to comment on the caliber and life experience of individual corps members I suggest you take your discussion to a different forum where the audience is better suited to widespread and uninformed generalizations.

As for your comment that “Being a teacher means being part of a community, not a bragging right of how you toughed it out for 2 years as a educator” I would say that I wholeheartedly agree. When I joined Teach for America and when I entered my new place of employment on the days before school (and throughout the school year) I cherished the connections I made with my colleagues. I relish being a part of a community of dedicated individuals who care about their students and I am an active union member. Again I’d like to say that I think you’d be hard pressed to find a TFA member who disagrees with any of those things. I didn’t enter the classroom to prove anything to anybody except to prove to my students that they were capable of and had the right to an education equal to their white and more affluent peers in the surrounding neighborhoods.

In addition I recognize that TFA is an organization with many corporate backers, and while I appreciate and understand the apparent discrepancy in values between some of TFA’s backers and TFA’s own professed ideals, I also recognize that I am an individual working to make a change and I am unique and distinct from the organization I work with. I am sure that Sarah also makes this distinction. We do not always agree with all of the practices of our organization, but that is why we have and use our voices to speak out against the things we disagree with. Just as I work to better myself as an individual and an educator I also work to better the organization I am a part of. As I said earlier, no program or organization is perfect because it will always be made up of imperfect individuals, but as one of those individuals I strive to be a part of the improvement process.

Respectfully,

Rose Smith

Rose:
“However, as an individual and a professional I am not at all qualified to do any of those things. I am not a politician, a doctor, or a social worker. Instead I have chosen to take the path of a teacher to help show my students the opportunities they need to find their way out of poverty.”

Again, you miss my point. I’m not talking about you - I am talking about Teach for America. It’s great that you are trying to show your students out of poverty.

At the risk of repeating myself for the millionth time, there is no reason for such poverty to
exist. How is it possible that in the year 2008, in the USA, there are so many people living in poverty?

Why is there talk about reforming low income schools, but no discussion of improving the conditions of low income people?

Why not get some of these mega-corporations who donate to TFA to work on improving the quality of life for all people, instead of paying sub-par wages to their employees while they themselves make billions?

If someone was to sit down and say, “I want to create a program to address the problems in inner city schools”, wouldn’t the first thing they thought of be- what are some of the factors that are contributing to the problems there?

Doesn’t that strike you as just a bit shortsighted?

In the years since TFA started, with all of the teachers who have been sent in to schools, has it not occurred to anyone to say to Wendy Kopp-”Look at the conditions of the low income neighborhoods. Look at the conditions of the low income schools. Something needs to be done to improve these conditions?”

If something were done, maybe the conditions that Kopp likes to cite over and over again as being an “injustice” would not be there.

I find it hard to believe that such conversations have not occurred given the amount of intelligent people who are recruited by TFA.

Deborah:
Isn’t this thread interesting in relation to the link you sent?
Doesn’t it prove the film makers point?

Rose,

I understand, and I appreciate your dedication and maturity.

When I talked about being spoon-fed, I was referring to the insulting attitude that is coming across from the TFA. I, for one, am sick to death of hearing about how TFA members have “top-notch educations from high reputation schools”, as if to imply the education and training of traditional teachers is something lesser than. The TFA should work on its PR.

Also, when I talked about not being a true teacher, as opposed to a teach in training, I am not referring to any training or licensure you received or you developed later on into the process. I’m talking about starting on Day One with nothing but a BA and 5 weeks of God-only-knows-what-kind of training. Seriously. I want to know what kind of adequate training can be provided in 5 WEEKS???? I worked very hard in my MAT program at very prestigious school, at 25 years old and some actual life experience under my belt before returning to school, only to be “told” now by TFA and its members that you expect me to consider your training equal to mine??? I couldn’t set foot in a classroom without having my license first and you’re getting one AFTER being hired, from the sounds of it. (I apologize if I read that incorrectly.) So you see, we did not START OUT equally trained. This was my point. It’s nothing personal, I assure you. This is a professional difference that I feel the so-called “progressives” are using to make the traditional teachers seem redundant and outdated, and it’s offensive. There is this undertone to their rhetoric that says,”See? We don’t need to properly train, educate and license teachers! We can hire these young sprats who will be too naive to know they’re being taken advantage of! We can pay them next to nothing! Traditional teachers are too expensive and high maintenance! This is better! WE CAN SAVE LOTS OF MONEY!”

Here is what I still not not understand. If this is about dedication and effectiveness, then what makes anyone think that our traditional training is somehow NOT or less effective? Because I feel that is the message being sent here. What is it about YOUR program that is better than MINE? I graduated 10 years ago, educational reform hasn’t changed that much in that time, yet I am redundant now, because I am not a “22 year old upstart” (Sarah’s comment)? I’m sorry, but no 22 year old has ANYTHING on me, as Sarah was trying to imply that there are hoards of old, lazy, traditional teachers out there who are shaking in their boots over all this TFA glory. Please. I was wiser at 27 when I started teaching than I was at 22, and that’s true of everyone. I think it was Elvis Costello who said something like, “We’re all very self-righteous at 22, aren’t we?” It is certainly self-righteous to assume that we, traditional teachers, are feeling intimidated over the TFA “movement”. Traditional teachers are appalled over what we view as a labor undermining, not a stealing of one’s thunder or being made to look inadequate. Personally, I see far more effective and dedicated teachers, as I know you do, as well, Rose, than I see of these ineffective ones Sarah is describing.

Voice,

It absolutely does. When I saw that film, I truly saw the link between No Child Left Behind, excessive testing, and the government getting the public they “ordered” from they schools they have been “investing” in, as the film described. And we all know the poor inner cities can go to hell….

Lately I started reading about charter schools and anti-union propaganda, because I couldn’t understand why the public wasn’t seeing the insidiousness that’s going on here. (So glad I found this blog btw, I love it!) Then, I realized that, yes, this is a part of a bigger, corporate picture. We ARE under attack, it’s not just in my mind! Why should public education NOT be part of the weakening of our democracy? It all makes perfect sense now.

[...] TFA members have been responding to criticisms on this post:Teach for America Ordered to Pay Back Taxpayers’ Money, which is an interesting choice in that it deals with one of the first mainstream-media criticisms [...]

Deborah:
I agree. In a weakening democracy, one of the first things to be attacked would be the public schools.
And speaking of attacking- why don’t we hear discussions about the war analogies that are so often used when discussing public school education and alternative programs?
“Troops for America”, “Corp Members”, “A Year in the Trenches”, “these overachievers seem to thrive on the stress and challenge of building appropriate curriculum in what amounts to a war zone”
You see it over and over again.
Now we need to ask the question whom is the war against? Is it against the big, bad teachers who are making 40,000 dollars a year - it may appear to be in the media, but the reality is that it is a war being raged against our children by private interests who have their own agendas.

Back to Sara’s comment that education is a a major factor in the poverty cycle.
Wouldn’t an enlightened society therefore, pour the most resources into educational systems that cater to impoverished communities instead of trying to constantly cut back by sending in people who command low salaries and will probably never need a pension?
Wouldn’t it make sense to pay people very well to work with our most neediest?
Don’t our neediest children need the most experienced of teachers?
I invite every experienced teacher to think about their first two years of teaching.
The first two years are a tremendous learning curve even for the most talented and intuitive among us.
Why are affluent neighborhoods hesitant to hire inexperienced people?
They do not want their children to be used as a training ground.
Yet, for some reason, this is ok for low income children. Teach for America is in fact, helping to ensure that the cycle of poverty continues- by providing inexperienced person after inexperienced person to work with the children who need the most help.

To the Sarah person at 12:32 a.m.:
Regarding your statement: “And let me say this very plainly: we have no desire whatsoever to remove effective teachers from urban classrooms.”
Did you slip up? I think you’re a pretender, and not a TFA corps member at all. If you were a TFA, how on earth could you have so much hubris as to even THINK about removing any teachers, bad or good, from the classroom? You’d be one de-sensitized individual, and I wouldn’t want my kids to spend too much time around you. You’re attitude alone might really spin their heads in ways I wouldn’t want them to go.

It’s funny that you, whoever you are, were the first to use the word “upstart.” None of the bloggers opposed to TFA ever had, on this site or elsewhere. And it’s also safe to say that none of us feel “threatened” by TFA trainees. We feel “saddened” that such a high percentage of schoolkids are being instructed by pre-teachers. We are also very “angry” that corporate America has the political and financial clout to reinforce, and even increase, the difference between the tiers in our society through the installation of economic and business models that have huge anti-social, anti-labor, and anti-intellectual impact.

You are not creating, as you claim, a “national movement of teachers,” but a “national movement of recycling grad students.” That’s a big difference.

(And to your earlier 5:44 p.m. comment, I don’t think it’s unfeasible to sign in for a meal. You’re waiting on the line anyway. Or you could be given a set of meal tickets, etc. Easy as pie. I’ll even go further: I think you should all sign into every one of the training sessions as well, to make sure no one cuts those corners.)

A word about certification:
The State changed the certification possibilities fairly recently (AVoiceIn would know when that was) in order to staff schools and accommodate programs like TFA — I don’t know which drove them more to lower the start-up qualifications. My guess is that they needed warm bodies in the classrooms. See the website at: http://schools.nyc.gov/Offices/DHR/TeacherPrincipalSchoolProfessionals/Certification/Teacher+and+School+Professional+Certification.htm
for a description of the item called Transitional B, where even the requirements for the basic license (the “Initial” one) aren’t yet met. I wouldn’t be surprised if pretty soon the DoE forced the state to accept kids fresh out of HS as trainees, and call it something like “Gap Year Certification” — the gap year being (for those who may not have heard the term) the year between HS and college when you do something else besides study.

So, for anyone to be annoyed at someone putting quotes around “teachers” — these PRE-Initial certificate grad students, where even the Initial grad students are allowed to be up to 5 years away from full certification in the first place — is preposterous. A 3-yr-old is and will always be a child, no quotation marks needed; he gets to be an adult some 15-18 years later. If you want him to BE something he is NOT, you definitely need quotes, as in a 3-yr-old “adult” and a TFA “teacher.”

To “Rose Smith” at 7:55 p.m.: Hah!! I loved that bit about helping TFA improve, offering them your experienced guidance. Are you out of your mind??? Oh, I forgot, you might also be a figment of someone’s imagination, hard to tell. There’s not a single trainee I’ve run into who is open to anything going on in other classrooms by veteran teachers: unless, of course, they’ve been specifically told to go and hang out with such-and-such vets, formally or informally. Trainees are brainwashed before they get to the schools to think they are saving the world. They are often haughty (cream of the crop sort of thing), and for the most part know they are Just Passing Through so why bother.

Your later comment: “Instead I have chosen to take the path of a teacher to help show my students the opportunities they need to find their way out of poverty.” If you’re an avatar for TFA, that’s a sublime non sequitur and just plain blather. If you really are a TFA, what a jerky remark (teaching point: notice I didn’t call you a jerk).

I’m very angry, not at the individual participants, but at the corporate crime, the big sell, and the re-shaping of the profession through programs such as this.

woodlasss last blog post..The winds of change . . .

To answer your question, Voice, I believe this is a war on us, as the film states, now that I recall…It’s a war about money, not even power or control, but greed. One of the reasons the teachers and schools are under constant attack lately, I think, is because we are seen (and portrayed in many cases) are a HUGE money sucker. None of this is about improving education, it’s about finding a way conduct school business at bottom cost.

We don’t live in a nation that thinks about the good of all people, so we don’t care about investing in people’s quality of life or the good of society for all. Think about it: if you want to keep a nation strong, you keep her citizens HEALTHY and EDUCATED. Socialized countries already know this. Hell, most of them cover COLLEGE education, as well!

Well, we all know our health care system sucks and is now completely driven by commercial interests. Hospitals are now conducted like businesses. And now, our public schools are threatened. I feel this is all a measure being taken against us, as a nation of people, to keep us feeling weak, powerless and in many cases, financially desperate.

Voice: Why are affluent neighborhoods hesitant to hire inexperienced people?
They do not want their children to be used as a training ground.

This is a excellent point, and you may be correct. I will be honest with you, I work in a more affluent suburb near Boston, with is a mix of working and professional class and no commercial revenue, a “bedroom community”. So money is tighter here than it is in many of our surrounding suburbs, which are REALLY affluent. I can only speak from my own experience in the hiring process. I’ve noticed that young, inexperienced teachers are highered very quickly BECAUSE they cost less than their more experienced counterparts, and in the case of many principals who have huge visions and egos to stroke, building principals love to groom new teachers to THEIR visions. They want them impressionable. In my district right now, our elementary schools are all receiving new principals because our new superintendent is hiring his own. At first I thought this was a good thing because the “Old Boys Club” needed to replaced. Unfortunately it was replaced by the “Nazi Girls Network”. What do you think they started doing during their second year? Eliminate all the non-tenured teachers. Clean house, as they say, so they can bring in their own. One of them even told a young male teacher that he should consider teaching phys ed instead of being a classroom teacher!! Hello??? We NEED male teachers at the elementary level. This was blatant sexism.

This is also why so many leave before their tenure kicks in. If you’re tempted to leave a district, you always leave before you get too expensive and will have a harder time getting hired again. This is not always the case, but it’s how many people feel.

Many teachers know that the morale of staff and conduct of kids is reflective of the principal(s) behavior and expectations towards their school community. I think many teachers believe that inner city schools (more so at middle and high school levels) are out of control with a weak administration that leaves its teachers unsupported and left to fend for themselves. So no one wants to deal with at that stress. That means that young teachers are usually all that’s left to pick from in the hiring process, they are the only ones willing to give it a try, either due to financial needs, educational convictions, or just not really knowing what they may be getting themselves into. None of these things are wrong, I’m not making any judgments here, but I think this is the case for many.

Everything Rose said was right on point. Thank you!

Private sector employment: I spent 5 years in the private sector, part-time and full-time, so please don’t assume that I have no idea what I’m talking about. I’m most certainly not saying that poor employees in corporate jobs aren’t getting fired when they should be, I’m simply saying that it’s not virtually impossible for it to happen. Additionally, in my view, it’s much less of a tragedy when a corporate employee doesn’t get fired because their job doesn’t affect our future generations of low-income children.

And maybe I need to put this in all caps because I don’t think the message is getting through:

THOSE OF YOU THAT CARE ENOUGH TO WRITE/COMMENT ON EDUCATION BLOGS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM!

and

MOST TRADITIONAL TEACHER ARE NOT BAD TEACHERS!

and

THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH TRADITIONAL TEACHERS TO STAFF OUR SCHOOLS! THEY SIMPLY DO NOT EXIST!

As for addressing the issues of poverty: again, that is exactly what we (all of us) are doing! Poverty wouldn’t exist if every low-income child was attaining an excellent education. Poverty is an effect of poor education, not the other way around. When we fix this, we’ll have fixed that. And in the meantime, we should all be excited that thousands of college graduates are dedicating their lives to these issues instead of corporate greed.

As for training: I’m not, and never have, saying anything bad about traditional teacher training. I have no problem with it whatsoever. I have not experienced it myself, and because of that, I have no grounds to knock it.

In the same way, YOU have not experienced the training I received either. Our five weeks of institute is no walk in the park. It’s quite literally 18+ hours per day of work/training, with standards higher than any other.

As for saving lots of money… every first year teacher is compensated equally, no matter what their method of entry. As for attrition:

86% of TFA teachers stay for a second year.
82% of traditionally certified teachers stay for a second year. (2003, National Commission on Teaching and America’s Future)

War analogies: Pretty sure that those analogies stem from the frequent gunshots we hear in my neighborhood, and plenty others like it in urban America. Not that I’m defending them, just putting them in perspective.

Being a 22-year-old upstart teacher: I’m pretty fed up with people assuming that 22=clueless. That may be true of many people my age, but it’s simply not the case for me or anyone else in TFA. Just because I’m not jaded and cynical doesn’t mean I’m stupid. It means that I have a sense of purpose and possibility, and see things through a fresh lens.

And finally: These ineffective teachers are not the majority, but there are enough of them to be concerned. During my conference period and on scheduled observation days, I have the opportunity to see other classrooms in action. And all too frequently, I see credentialed teachers showing non-educational movies every other week, simply handing out an assignment straight from the textbook without teaching or scaffolding, and generally not meeting the needs of students that are continually being left behind. And we wonder why they get to high school and can’t read!

Our students are not failing because they’re stupid or impoverished. They’re failing because they simply are not being taught.

I also keep hearing this business about the first 2 years being a learning curve for every teacher. That is absolutely not the case for TFA. In my personal experience, which is very average, the steepest part of the learning curve ended at Thanksgiving of my first year. By the end of my first year, I had a better handle on teaching and management than most of the 3rd and 4th year traditionally certified teachers at my school. And that can only be attributed to the constant training, observation, and reflection I received through TFA.

And on an aggregate scale, TFA teachers are making progress in their classrooms. The average child in a low-income classroom (all teachers, new and old) makes 0.5 years of growth per year. In TFA classrooms, 50% of first year and 80% of 2nd year teachers achieve an average of 1 or more years’ growth with their students. The data to determine growth is based on a very rigorous tracking system that follows the students all year, charting their progress on every objective and standard mastered.

Sarah’s got her knickers in a twist, I think:

In the paragraph after all the capital letters: “Poverty is an effect of poor education” — in other words, you’re poor if you don’t get education (a ridiculous statement in the first place) but in any case simplified into:

P (poverty, and by extension: failure to succeed in life) results from B (bad education).

In the last para she says:
“Our students are not failing because they’re stupid or impoverished. . . . they simply are not being taught.”

This time: F (failure) does NOT result from P (poverty, which she previously says results from bad education), but from . . . B (bad education). Hmmmm.

Which comes first, the poverty or the bad education? Neither. You can be poor and educated (Abe Lincoln) and rich and under-educated (George Bush).

Circumventing this gobbledygook: Poverty has to do with socio-economics, education has to do with ability and desire to retain information that is taught. The issues are entwined and complicated, and no syllogistic PR proliferated by corporate America is going to reduce them to snippets of any relevance or wisdom.

woodlasss last blog post..The winds of change . . .

To all who have commented and responded,

I’m not entirely sure there’s anything more I can say at this point since all contributers seem (often rightly) enraged. I’m not going to spout TFA statistics at you because I know you’ve seen them all before. I’m not going to defend the practices of the organization or the companies who support them. Clearly you’re angry and to be honest you seem entirely justified. My only concern was that you took a stance against the individuals who make up the program which clearly you don’t (as a group that is, since some of your contributers do). I always feel that communication is the way to begin change and I hope that someone with more influence than me is able to read and appreciate your comments. Poverty does need to be addressed, it should be a focus of public policy, and steps should be taken to improve the conditions in and around low income schools. No point you’ve made has been invalid (save personal comments made by contributers to your blog) and I agree that serious issues should be discussed. TFA is not a band-aid or a catch all problem. It is an imperfect solution in an imperfect system.

Respectfully and finally,

Rose Smith

Ok.

I don’t have the exact numbers on this, but I’m sure if any one of us spent an a few hours on census.gov or searching academic journals, we could probably find them.

So without the numbers, I’ll just make an educated guess. Let’s think about Watts and Beverly Hills… which one do you think has the greater percentage of college educated people? Which was has the greater percentage of people with excellent health care? Which one has more violence? Which one has more malnourished children? There is a very strong correlation between education, neighborhood (and therefore, school), nutrition, and health care.

So by now, woodlass, I’m starting to think that you’re calling my statements ridiculous just because you find it amusing.

All of the TFA’s I know, and I know many, have no children at home. They are very young and have the time to plan for school 24/7. They are afraid to “stand up” to idiot administrators and will often allow these administrators to break every article in the contract. Many of them complain to me in tears, but when I hand them a grievance form they are fearful of putting their words into action. Talk about affecting dozens of children’s lives , they leave after two years. In my building dozens of TFA leave after two years. I am not saying that these teachers are not hard workers , but if it were up to the administrators all teachers would be TFA. Teachers would work all day without a prep or a lunch. We would have no summer vacation, no holidays and be expected ( as we are now) to go home and log onto ACUITY and ARIS and check out the data. We would have to hold in our pee-pee till the end of the day. Our classes would go way beyond class caps as per contract. The turn -over of TFA is great for the schools budget because then principals won’t have to pay “steep” salaries, and can spend more money on test prep!!

I wanted to address the comments Rose makes because they demonstrate some sensitivity. I believe that TFA’s like Rose and many of us are ultimately on the same side - if Rose chooses to make a career of teaching in the classroom. If not, we are probably on different wavelengths.

Most of us were and are long-time teachers who fought for the right things for our kids and went beyond the classroom to do so. We reject Sarah’s characterizing us as non-progressive teachers. We were the most daring and willing to take chances and stand up to a stifling bureacracy in NYC and fight to make the UFT into a progressive force that would do more than chase after higher teacher salaries (so far we’re losing the battle)- like engage in the political fight to move funds being misused into lowering class size and fighting for a proper share of the funding that would provide kids in urban areas with an education similar to those in the wealthy suburbs get.

That means proper training of new teachers. So let’s compare 22 year olds - a TFA and someone who went through all the course work which often includes a year of student teaching.

Both might struggle initially. But who do you think can offer more to the kids? Now some out there probably think that the person who wanted to be a teacher all through college and will make a career of it is not up to the same stuff as the TFA who decides in the senior year to jump into teaching for 2 years. I know. I was in a TFA like 2 year program as far back as 1967 and entered with the same idea.

But I learned very quickly that the ed majors really knew what they were doing and I learned all about teaching from them and the older colleagues.

Now when Rose says:
“I agree that the issues of inadequate nutrition and health care should be addressed, and that resources ought to be spent in finding those answers. However, as an individual and a professional I am not at all qualified to do any of those things. I am not a politician, a doctor, or a social worker. Instead I have chosen to take the path of a teacher to help show my students the opportunities they need to find their way out of poverty.”

Rose- you ARE qualified to get involved in the political struggle for your kids - as qualified as you are to teach after 5 weeks if not more so. And many TFA’s who stay are finding that by the 4th year they are beginning to see that and are are joining social justice groups and - heavens - even seeing the importnace of the UFT. I am meeting some of these people and they are a pleasure to work with.

Sure, I am critical of the overall TFA approach - which by focusing people on the narrow issue of closing the achievement gap solely by hard work in the classroom deflects them from the bigger stuggles - and don’t ignore the fact that the corporate community which also wants to keep people from looking at full funding of education is so supportive of TFA.

But I am very supportive of TFA’s who stay in the system and continue to battle for the kids. If you do stay, there is a lot to learn over the years.

Like the number of kids’ funerals you attend despite the fact you narrowed their achievement gap. Or the ones you see selling drugs. Or the girls who get pregnant just a few years after leaving your elementary school classroom. Or the calls from prison.

Yes, we are progressive teachers who abhor the regressive attacks on teachers as the problem when we have seen so much over the years. We’ve seen enough to know that there are 10 year teachers who can accomplish with a lot less huffing and puffing as much as a new teacher who puts in long hours and who thinks they get it all by Thanksgiving.

We hope we don’t see the day when a first year TFA will say there’s no room in the classroom for a mom who can’t spend the 14 hour days because she has her own children to go home to take care of. But it wouldn’t surprise me.

Norms last blog post..A Great Debate on Teach for America

Norm,
I did not intend to post again, but I felt the need to clarify my earlier statement. I’m sorry if I misrepresented myself. I didn’t mean to state that I am a fully qualified teacher as experienced and understanding as those who have spent years in the classroom. I am not, but I am learning and will continue to do so. I also didn’t intend it to seem as if I take no part in the social justice issues that affect, contribute and cause the atrocious conditions surrounding low income schools and families because I do. I merely meant that I approach those issues through teaching, that I am not a doctor and so going out and administering medication to children who need it is not something I am qualified to do (that is just an example so please don’t extrapolate from that point). However lobbying, protesting, and actively participating in organizations that strive to provide equal and adequate health care to those who need it is something I can and do participate in (again just one example). I AM qualified to participate in the politics (as you pointed out) and I do. I merely meant I am not qualified, striving for qualification, or in any way trained, experienced or knowledgeable of the complex structures that make up the practice of medicine (again an example). I have every intention of staying in the classroom beyond my two year commitment and I look forward to working with dedicated educators like those who voice their opinions and frustrations on this blog and others.

Thank you,

Rose

Look, as important as a child’s education may be, there are also millions of people with injuries, sickness, and diseases. If ever there was a time to create and develop a Doctors For America, (DFA), it is now. Grab these college graduates, teach them medical procedures, let them practice some surgery and get them the hell out there, before another sprained ankle goes too long without adequate treatment.

Sarah, 2:20:

For the record, I do not find your statements amusing, nor do I find YOU amusing. How could any of the “clueless rhetoric” Deborah alluded to or the Watts / Beverly Hills comparison you just made be amusing to anyone? It’s actually grotesque.

(Norm, I see you are attempting to reason with these people. You can’t reason with scripts.)

woodlasss last blog post..The winds of change . . .

I will no longer attempt to reason with someone that doesn’t see the blatant and obvious correlation between poverty and poor education. I’m simply not seeing your logic and can’t understand how anyone else does either. So I’m done, woodlass.

Whew, that’s good news. Abe, are you listening? She backed off.

woodlasss last blog post..The winds of change . . .

Woodlass, I wouldn’t count on it.

Hello all,

I’m a former member of TFA (elementary resource), the NEA and local EA, and three of my four parents are public school teachers. I want to say that, aside from the personal attacks, I really appreciate the various viewpoints that are being expressed here.

I’m not here just to pick a side and dive in. Personally, I think TFA is quite good in some areas, and rather lacking in others. However, I do have a couple points to offer that haven’t been lifted up in this discussion yet.

AVIW raises the question: why focus on education rather than other issues in our students’ lives outside the classroom that obviously adversely impact the success of our students? It’s a good point - and is one which TFA actually attempts to address, though secondarily to its main function.

Basically, it works like this: TFA recognizes that there are short term and long term problems occurring in education. This is not rocket science - most people here are probably in agreement that there are short term educational issues: not enough funding for schools, high class sizes, not enough good teachers, not enough teachers period, etc.). The long term problems probably can’t and won’t be solved in the classroom, but by enacting systemic changes over a long period of time, changes that help provide adequate health care, child care, job security, and so on.

TFA’s short-term approach is simple: get qualified teachers in front of students. This isn’t a judgment on teachers who take a traditional route to licensure, but an acknowledgment that it is possible to prepare teachers for the classroom through other means, under the right circumstances. (Note: this doesn’t mean that every TFA teacher does a great or even adequate job. But neither is it true that TFA teachers are generally inferior to traditional teachers. All available data suggests that TFA teachers perform as well and even slightly better than traditional first & second year teachers, probably because of the intensive support TFA teachers receive throughout the year.)

TFA’s long term approach assumes the following: by recruiting teachers from other fields and causing them to encounter first-hand the difficult issues adversely affecting the education of their students, many TFA alumni go back into their respective fields and enact change from that perspective. The textbook example is that one alum became a doctor and started a clinic in the neighborhood in which he used to teach. Many others are in politics, public policy, sit on school boards, or work in the non-profit sector.

The bottom line here is that some of the “bad” things about Teach For America are actually tied to the “good” things - such as the two year turnover (”You say ‘quitters,’ I say ‘Educational advocates in other fields’” …and maybe we’re both right?)

As an institution, TFA is not perfect. But neither is it terrible. Lastly, I will certainly affirm what others have said here, that TFA people (with precious few exceptions), like traditional teachers (with precious few exceptions) are motivated by the educational success of their students. We’re not on different sides when it comes to what’s most important.

Peace,
Tom R

Looks like I missed the party.
Deborah, I agree that there is an attempt to bring down costs by hiring teachers who will not command high salaries. Teachers are viewed by some as “money suckers” which is really sad, because what does it say about how we value our children, if we do not want to pay their teachers well?

I also believe that there is a deliberate dumbing down occurring in this country. As the movie said, “The government gets what it pays for, so if we are producing children who have low skill levels, this is what the government wants.”
I’m paraphrasing.

Woodlass discussed teacher certification before. I don’t know where you are, but here in New York, becoming certified is a nightmare. Between laying out money for graduate school, the huge fees that they charge for certification applications as well as tests, and the unbelievable red tape-it’s daunting and turns many away.

Yet, if you want to come in on a temporary route, everything is made much easier. What does this tell you about whom they want teaching our children? If they wanted people with experience and training, they would not make it so difficult.

Do we really believe that the ruling class- and despite what some people believe there is a ruling class in this country - wants educated, enlightened people who will be able to look at the world and critique and criticize?

I could go on and on. The head of our school system just happens to be the Mayor who just happens to be the owner of one of the largest media conglomerates in the world. Is it any surprise that the information that is churned out reflects an anti-teacher, anti-union slant?
When will we wake up and ask these questions?

[...] You know, in retrospect, the way that TFA members feel the need to defend the TFA program has been striking me as really odd. In particular, I have been amazed at how some responders have reacted to the audit story. A simple posting about an audit of the program and - bang! They come out. [...]

Tom R, your sentence: “TFA’s short-term approach is simple: get qualified teachers in front of students.”

Correction: TFA’s short-term approach is simply to get UN-qualified grad students in front of students. Lots of them, in waves. They do this to rake in public funds. How can you make a mistake of this magnitude without being totally taken in by the hype?

Later you say: “But neither is it true that TFA teachers are generally inferior to traditional teachers.” Nobody’s commented on the qualities of TFA people. What some of us are particularly critical about is that these corps members, in all their 5-week pre-trainee glory, think they are teachers. It’s not their fault. That’s where the TFA brainwashing comes in, to make the participants think they are special people, special enough to save students and save the profession.

“Studies actually have found that the students of new TFA recruits do significantly less well in reading than students of fully-prepared teachers, losing as much as a half a year’s progress in comparison to their peers who have trained and experienced teachers.” [http://teachingquality.typepad.com/building_the_
profession/2007/09/inside-the-belt.html] The article also says that some parents in CA even filed a lawsuit a year ago against the loophole in NCLB that allows teacher training programs to put unqualified people into classrooms when the law demands “highly qualified” ones.

You say yourself that TFA is one of those programs that can “prepare teachers for the classroom,” and I agree, it does prepare them in the couple of years they work in schools. And when they move on, new grad students to be “prepared” take their place. This leaves public school children under the constant tutelage of learners — until TFA can show long-term retention, which it won’t because that was never its goal.

A quote from that same website about retention: “Although TFA teachers eventually perform as well as other teachers (when they become trained and certified) at least 80 percent have left by their third year — the point at which research shows that most teachers become more effective. In the long run, these well-meaning TFA recruits contribute to the revolving door of under-prepared teachers that hamper the learning of poor and minority students and undermine stability in urban schools.”

Someone else did a PhD on TFA teacher retention:
http://www.gse.harvard.edu/news_events/features/2008/06/5_donaldson.php
“Her study showed that almost 44 percent of TFA corps members voluntarily remained in their initial low-income placement schools for more than two years, and that almost 15 percent stayed in those placements for more than four years. Additionally, 60 percent voluntarily remained in the teaching profession for more than two years, and 36 percent stayed in teaching for more than four years.”] Those are pretty low percentages, well under half, for such program of this notoriety and size.

THE CONCERN IS REAL. One shouldn’t defend something that is fundamentally flawed, to its conceptual roots.

woodlasss last blog post..The winds of change . . .

In order to come up with a long term approach, one has to be able to think in the long term.
Unfortunately, some of the comments on this thread have shown an inability to think in the long term or to see outside of a well constructed box.
Really scary thinking for “Educators”

woodlass,

It angers me that you are attempting to diminish my experience as a teacher by categorically dismissing all TFA teachers as “UN-qualified” grad students who only think they are teachers. I really don’t appreciate this attack by association. I am not maligning you and your experience, so please do not do the same to me.

Your generalizations about how much worse TFA teachers are than others appear to be based on one guy’s opinion on a blog, not on actual test data. I suspect you’re not interested in the actual data, but feel free to pony up with it in case I’m wrong.

Until then, please know that whatever suspicions you might have against TFA teachers generally, I am damn proud of how I personally did my job, which earned me the respect of my students, their parents, my colleagues, and administrators. I caused my students to make measurable academic and behavioral/social gains, and I feel very good about that. So kindly lay off with the categorical condemnation - thanks.

Peace,
Tom R

–Your generalizations about how much worse TFA teachers are than others appear to be based on one guy’s opinion on a blog, not on actual test data–

What a an eerily clinical statement.

So we only measure a teacher’s effectiveness on the test data?

Why not on their ability to inspire and motivate a roomful of children?

Why not on the changes in the self esteem and attitudes of children?

Why not on the long-term growth of a child, instead of on the information obtained from some test?

Are children simply data to you?

What kind of monsters is TFA creating?

Teacher Lady,

Just to clarify, my statement about “test data” was actually a misnomer - I should have said, “study”, because I was referring to studies about Teach For America, not students and their test results.

Also, after the sweat, blood, and heart I poured into my students for two years, for you to call me a monster actually hurts my feelings. I’ve tried to be respectful on this site and refrain from attacking anyone personally. Would you please extend the same respect to me?

Peace,
Tom

Sarah and Rose:

No one is dismissing or disrespecting TFA teachers here. We are dismissing and disrespecting an organization that is doing above said TO US.

With all due respect, in my view, TFA “teachers” are teachers in training, if you can even call it that. I did my official student teacher training in the inner city, as well as all my other required training: grad school education preparatory, thesis, testing and licensure.

Now, here comes this arrogant organization who claims to be able to fix the ailments we’ve all been trying to fix for decades, and with a group of spoon-fed college elite whom they believe will do this with no training and for less money than many people are willing to pay US. THAT is the issue here, whether you see this wave coming right now, or not. In case you haven’t been paying attention to current events, a lot of powerful people do not give a crap about educating poor and/or people of color these days.
Elitism, anyone?

Being a teacher means being part of a community, not a bragging right of how you toughed it out for 2 years as a educator. The attitude of too many people regarding the teaching profession is: “I can do that.” In my experience, no, they can’t. Teaching is a gift, a talent, you either have it or you don’t, but you must be groomed and guided to make the most of it. You can’t figure this stuff out on our own, and teaching is not the place to try to save the world and prove your amazing abilities alone. No amount of idealism will save a teacher if they are trying to prove something, and no amount of talent will save a teacher if they have no support and guidance. It is very unfortunate that the TFA is presenting itself as a organization that has the ability to provide idealist young grads with the notion that they can go it alone, do it better than their trained “colleagues” and then leave us behind before embarking on their “real life”.
Second helping of elitism, anyone?

If you truly desire to accomplish helpful change for schools and children in the future, I applaud and respect you. But the TFA is not seeing eye to eye with you on that front, as it stands right now.

You can see all comments on this post here:
http://avoicecriesout.com/2008/07/13/teach-for-america-ordered-to-pay-back-tax-payers-money/#comments

To Tom R, sorry for the delay, I was out, but Teacher Lady and Deborah gave some pretty good answers. I am only responding at all because you addressed me.

I am categorically NOT “attempting to diminish [your] experience.” If I have, show me where. EVERY learning experience is valuable, and that’s what you’re doing: Learning. Why would I diminish it? I’m glad you’ve been successful in your training period — not just glad for you, but for all those kids you’ve been experimenting on!

I am, however, not willing to recognize any TFA trainees as “teachers” at all. They are learners, as has been mentioned often enough by now. Would it make you feel better if I called you and all the rest of the corps members “teachers”? Do you need that? Okay. You’re in front of a class, ergo you’re a teacher. Happy?

Not once did I ever say “how much worse TFA teachers are than others.” If I have, show me where. Some TFA (and non-TFA!) trainees might really have a flair for the job. I never form my opinions on “one guy’s opinion on a blog” (Who would do that?) , and concomitantly, I would never judge a teacher on test data — now you say you meant “studies.” (Maybe. Is there a script here?) Who would judge a specific teacher in front of a specific class of students in a specific school under a particular group of administrators on the basis of a “study”? That would be absurd, though many in Educorp are trying to do just that.

If you think calling a spade a spade is a condemnation of that spade, too bad. TFAs are training to be teachers. They won’t be teachers in the full sense of the word until they spend some time in the job and get fully certified. I never said these trainees are bad, good, talented, empathetic, dull, hostile, stimulating, dour, driven, or anything else. If I have, say where.

I’m somewhat fascinated by your need to recast what I’ve written into something of your own imagination, but it’s also rather tiresome.

woodlasss last blog post..The winds of change . . .

This is exactly why I refuse to engage Woodlass’s arguments anymore:

“I am categorically NOT “attempting to diminish [your] experience.” If I have, show me where.”

Ok, how about two sentences later in the same post?

“I’m glad you’ve been successful in your training period — not just glad for you, but for all those kids you’ve been experimenting on!”

Calling us “trainees” that are “experimenting” on kids ISN’T categorically diminishing our experiences?!” Now I’m REALLY confused! In fact, I’m starting to wonder if I’m actually qualified enough to be writing this… or maybe I didn’t go to college either…

This whole “I never said X, if I did, just show me where” is complete bull. Woodlass is just trying to talk out of both sides of her mouth. She’s trying it here and on my blog as well. The truth is, she HAS said these things (just read all over the comments of this blog for proof!), and where she hasn’t, it’s heavily implied. Don’t think for even one second that any of us are dumb enough to not see the obvious tone of belittlement that underlies every word she writes here.

Sarah, dear, you bring this on yourself, through your own myopia (if you’re a real TFA person at all, that is).

When I said I’m glad you and the kids have been successful in your training period, I truly meant I am glad for you.

And I truly am glad for those kids you’ve been working with, that you have been successful with them. Because if you’d been experimenting with them — as you SURELY were, having had only 5 weeks training and possibly being years away from full certification — and NOT been successful with them, then their learning experience in your classroom would have been a total disaster, right?

It is most definitely NOT diminishing to call a trainee a trainee. Apprentices in ANY OTHER profession are happy to get paid for learning the trade. Why do you balk at the attribution so much?

It is also most definitely NOT diminishing to call what everyone does as a new teacher “experimenting.” We all had to do it. Those of us who keep refining our lessons STILL do it.

The difference is that TFA pumps you up to think you are one very special trainee, perhaps even EQUAL to a certified teacher, because you are bright and so carefully culled from the applicant group. That’s not our fault: I lay that particular inappropriateness right in the lap of TFA itself, to turn people like you into know-it-alls and standardbearers.

The “tone” you perceive has never been against your Sarah’s specific skills or talents, or Rose’s or any other particular TFA in the program. I challenge you to prove me wrong.

The “tone” you perceive is because you and some others spew propaganda so willingly and you think you have answers to society’s greatest social issues. It’s also because Kopp has been able to sell people like you (and worse: people like Joel Klein) a business venture involving a fraudulent quick fix.

woodlasss last blog post..The winds of change . . .

woodlass said: The difference is that TFA pumps you up to think you are one very special trainee, perhaps even EQUAL to a certified teacher, because you are bright and so carefully culled from the applicant group. That’s not our fault: I lay that particular inappropriateness right in the lap of TFA itself, to turn people like you into know-it-alls and standardbearers.

Bingo, bingo, BINGO! That is EXACTLY what this is about, and goes right back to what I said days ago about the notion of elitism that is being fostered by the TFA in its recruits.

This whole thing is turning into a big whining session. “You don’t consider us REAL teachers?????” NO. We don’t. WHY???? Because you DON’T have the training we do and until I actually SEE with my eyes the kind of “training” you acquired in 5 insanely short weeks and hold so highly with nothing to compare it to, I have no way of knowing that you’re doing anything a trained chimp couldn’t do. If you were to apply for a teaching job in the traditional job interview manner, you would be eliminated as UNQUALIFIED. Stop making special exceptions for yourselves to US, of all people. We got our training from accredited academic sources. We have no idea what you people received, only that you all seem to think you are experts who learned the trade fast and efficiently, which tells all of us you haven’t learned it yet at all.

And what I’ve been trying to say all along is that it’s not the training that should matter, it’s the performance. Similarly, if one guy gets his Bachelor’s of Business Administration from Texas State University and another gets the same degree from Harvard, does that make the Harvard guy automatically a higher performer or more qualified to be a manager? Absolutely not. The Texas State guy might have certain inherent qualities that give him an edge, make him more effective, able to learn more quickly, etc. Same thing goes with teaching.

Just like all of our students learn differently and at varied paces, so do we. Just like I have no right to bash the way or pace in which you learned to become a teacher, you similarly do not have the right to write us off as a “trainees” when in fact, maybe we just learn quickly - and very often, DO produce good results in our classrooms equal to those from other education backgrounds.

And I think that’s all I have to say on the matter.

Well, one more thing:

I apologize if my tone has steadily gotten more impatient with y’all. I am an extremely direct, straightforward person that never lies or beats around the bush, so it can come off as harsh when you don’t know me personally.

I still don’t appreciate the names I have been called on this blog (snot-nosed brat, Malibu Barbie, clueless, “trainee”, elitist, etc), but I will do better to keep them out of my mind when writing future posts.

I don’t know where you’ve seen such names here, and clueless is an adjective, not a name. I think your attitude is very elitist, but I didn’t say you were one.

Your idea that training doesn’t matter is ridiculous. I’m not qualified to practice medicine or do electrical work, but maybe I would do well at those jobs if given the chance. That doesn’t mean I can just wander into those fields are find out. That’s why we have medical LICENSES and electrical LICENSES, and many other kinds of LICENSES. Yet a teaching license is the only license that is being considered redundant these days. Don’t you see how insane this argument is? You, who was quoted as saying how nothing is more important that our children, our future. Yet, you can’t show a house to a prospective buyer without a real estate license, but we can have any Joe Smoe teach our children without proof of qualification. If you don’t see the hole in this theory, that you are either naive or a hypocrite.

And I stand by THAT statement.

Let me clarify: LENGTH of training, not the training itself.

For example: there are accelerated ways to get a real estate license, trade certifications, etc.

Tom already said this, I think: Traditional training is frontloaded, whereas ours is more ongoing. Neither has been shown (so far) to be significantly more effective than the other in the first 2 years of teaching.

And I really don’t think we can compare teaching to law or medicine. Here is why: law and medicine require a certain extensive knowledge of facts, laws, procedures, etc. Teaching has this to an extent, but also incorporates individual characteristics and personality traits. This gives teaching a more fluid baseline for what training is required before one can be an effective teacher, whereas doctors and lawyers have an absolute baseline of requirements. Personality and characteristics have much less influence on their ability to understand and interpret the law or medicine.

And Deborah, this post is where most of the name-calling went on:

“TFA Fights Back”:
http://avoicecriesout.com/2008/06/01/tfa-fights-back/

“Here is why: law and medicine require a certain extensive knowledge of facts, laws, procedures, etc. Teaching has this to an extent, but also incorporates individual characteristics and personality traits”

You’re kidding, right?

No, I’m not.

If a person studies enough and practices enough, he/she will probably be a passable doctor or lawyer because they would know all the necessary facts to make an accurate diagnosis, write a contract, argue a case, etc. Being a doctor or lawyer doesn’t require any special or intangible “gifts” other than the ability to memorize, analyze, and apply facts to situations.

Teaching, however, is much less fact-driven. Some people are naturally better at it than others due to their own unique personality traits. The things that you need to know in order to teach aren’t necessarily all learned in formal training, whereas they are in law or medicine. A person can learn and practice teaching skills from other life experiences - which include motivating others, leading groups, organizing, working with children, presenting material, reflecting on their own practice, incorporating feedback, etc. Then the formal training can simply accentuate what you already know and are good at to provide a baseline for becoming an effective teacher the classroom at a very quick pace.

“Being a doctor or lawyer doesn’t require any special or intangible “gifts” other than the ability to memorize, analyze, and apply facts to situations.”

Your kidding, right?

woodlass,

I’m sorry for not buying into your very own, personal language usage here (”trainees” vs. “teachers”), but since neither my school district, colleagues, administrators, students, or their parents, bothered to make this distinction you’re so desperately trying to hold onto, I won’t accept it either.

Look, believe it or not, I can resonate with what you are trying to say, albeit rudely: that first and second year teachers (read: TFA teachers) are not as “good” as they will become down the line as they grow in experience. Fine. But for you to cling to your own, personal definition of what constitutes a teacher is neither, um, true, nor constructive to any end other than scoring cheap laughs at the expense of TFA teachers - who, incidentally, work just as hard as you do to achieve the same exact responsibilities that you have.

Peace,
Tom R

Learners,

Being a doctor or lawyer requires one to be very, very smart; they don’t necessarily need to have the intangible skills such that teachers require.

Do you have questions about my comment or do you still think I’m kidding?

“Being a doctor or lawyer requires one to be very, very smart; they don’t necessarily need to have the intangible skills such that teachers require.”

It’s a good thing that being a teacher doesn’t require someone to be very, very smart.

So what I am getting from this statement is that YOU are not very smart and that YOU are lacking tangible skills. Thank you for clarifying.

[...] Here’s one gem: [...]

Sarah, I can’t believe you don’t hear yourself. How do you take yourself seriously? More importantly, how do expect others to take you seriously? You’re so insulting, yet because you have such a clinical and abstract view on this, you don’t even realize how you come across.

When you make these kinds of explanations about “what teaching is”, you sound like someone who would teach from a book, someone who thinks it is unnecessary to have an area of expertise because “the book will tell you what to teach, so as long as you know how to read, write and count”. For many teachers such as myself, having an area of expertise was mandatory before we would even be considered for a teacher preparatory program, or be able move on to the next level of the teaching process. After all, you can’t teach something unless you know your stuff.

Imagine teaching biology and not knowing anything about it, or relying on a teacher’s manual. I’m pretty sure biology teachers need to “very, very smart”, but I’m sure you’ll try to find some way to use your theoretical thinking to state otherwise…

I understand what you are saying about needing other skills to be a successful teacher, such as communication, empathy, presence and organization, but that’s where the talent comes in. There are geniuses out there who are horrible teachers because they lack the teaching talent. But when you brush aside teacher’s intelligence, you present yourself as someone who thinks a moron could do this job, so long as they have a charismatic personality and someone has given them knowledge of rubrics. And I can promise you that’s not going to help you win any arguments or comradery with us, the people you want to respect you and view you as an equal, fightin’ the good fight for the greater good along side with you.

Look, I am aware that some teachers aren’t too bright, and certainly wouldn’t be considered academics. As a woman in my thirties, it bothers me that this seems to be prevalent these days in young women who aim at teaching early childhood, and it’s something I detest because I believe those grades are very crucial and complex. (I will say, however, that they are usually smart about their jobs, and about kids.) But most teachers are pretty sharp tacks, many are VERY smart, and the older teachers tend to not only be very smart, but also wise. You’d be wise to learn something from them, namely a little respect for their intelligence.

@Sarah
“Teaching, however, is much less fact-driven”

So history, mathematics, and science have nothing to do with facts?

On the high school level, the criticism is that the teachers are too curriculum driven- they focus too much on “the facts” and the information that has to be distributed instead of on the “intangible” skills that you like to talk about.

Where do you get this crap from?
Do you make it up as you go along?

I ****seriously**** can’t believe that I have to clarify this.

I DID NOT SAY THAT TEACHERS DON’T HAVE TO BE SMART!!

We were discussing pedagogy and training. Y’all kept comparing unprepared teachers to unprepared doctors and lawyers, and I was simply pointing out that there can’t be an alternative for med school or law school because of the fact-driven nature of those professions.

And since we were discussing training and pedagogy, not high school subject areas like biology and history, I did not think I should have to point out that subject area teacher *obviously* need to know a thing or two about their subject! And on that note, FYI, TFA only places high school/subject matter teachers that actually have a degree or a significant amount of relevant coursework in the area. In the rare occasion where that may not happen (though I haven’t heard of any), the TFA corps member has likely been moved around by the district for whatever reason, not TFA.

Back to what I was saying. The *training* for doctors and lawyers is fact-driven, so